Rupa-rupanya Tunku tidak pernah mahu Singapura menyertai Malaysia

Politik Malaysia harini dilihat banyak dicorakkan oleh pembentukan Malaysia pada tahun 1963 dan pemisahan Singapura dari Malaysia pada tahun 1965.

Antaranya kegagalan Lee Kuan Yew menjadi Perdana Menteri Malaysia membawanya kepada kempen 'ajar' orang Melayu dan akhirnya dia dan negaranya 'ditendang' keluar. Satu tindakan yang menurut Tunku adalah keinginan Lee Kuan Yew dan dibuat atas persetujuan bersama.

Tangisan palsu

Tetapi selepas itu, setiausahanya, Lim Kit Siang dihantar ke Malaysia sebagai proksinya dengan matlamat politik yang tidak pernah berubah. Sebab itulah ramai rakyat Malaysia kini tidak berkenan dengan Mahathir apabila dia bersekongkol dengan DAP, parti yang mengambil peluang dari kemenangan mereka pada PRU pertama selepas Singapura ditendang keluar, menuai faedah sentimen orang Cina yang marahkan orang Melayu kerana menyokong pemisahan Singapura, dan terjadilah peristiwa 13 Mei 1969.

Jiwa Mahathir tidak sebesar jiwa Tunku dan perbuatannya membatalkan UMNO lama bagi menghilangkan keahlian otai UMNO termasuk Tunku adalah perbuatan terburuknya ke atas UMNO. Jika negarawan yang berhempas pulas memerdekakan negara ini dilayan seperti itu oleh Mahathir dia hari ini mendapat balasan setimpal. Dia sepatutnya diberi rasa bagaimana perbuatannya ke atas Tunku yang sesudah ditindas Mahathir, tetap tidak meroyan sepertinya hari ini.

Jika dilihat sokongan orang Melayu atas 'penendangan' keluar Singapura dan rentetan punca 13 Mei  dari provokasi DAP, parti penerus cita-cita Lee Kuan Yew yang ditubuhkan pada tahun 1967, pihak yang mendesak Tunku meletak jawatan rata-rata adalah penyokong Singapura bersama Malaysia antaranya Mahathir.  Justeru, adakah label 'ultra Malay' ke atasnya adalah helah semata-mata?

Hakikatnya, terdedah bahawa Tunku tidak inginkan Singapura dalam Malaysia sejak sebelum Malaysia ditubuhkan lagi. Tetapi memberi muka kepada Lee Kuan Yew selama tiga tahun sebelum akhirnya mengeluarkan 'barah' ini dari negara.

Pada tahun 1982, ketika Mahathir memboikot Britain, Tunku memberi ruang kepada Abdullah Ahmad, bekas pembantu khas Tun RAzak, yang juga bersama Mahathir pada 1969 mendesak Tunku meletak jawatan Perdana Menteri. Ikuti temubual ini.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Some scholars and researchers have said Malaysia was not your idea—it was planted in you by the British. Is this true? Ada bijak pandai dan pengkaji menyebut Malaysia bukanlah idea Tunku  tetapi ia adalah apa yang British telah aturkan.

The Tunku: It is completely untrue. The British had wanted to federate Brunei, Sarawak and Sabah, but the Sultan of Brunei rejected the British idea. He wanted a federation with us, though in the end, Brunei, as you know, did not join us. Even if the idea was British, it would not have become a reality if I had not implemented it. The suggestion is malicious and untrue. They, of course, cooperated with us to make Malaysia a success. Ini memang tidak betul . British mahu menjadikan Sabah , Sarawak dan Brunei sebuah persekutuan tapi Sultan Brunei menolak dengan alasan mahu bersekutu dengan kita walaupun akhirnya, macam hang nampak, depa tak join. Kalaupun idea nya idea British, benda ni tak akan jadi kalau saya tak laksanakan. Pendapat tu melulu dan tak betul. Depa British tentu sekali sangat bekerjasama dengan kita bagi memastikan Malaysia menjadi jaya.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Why did you give Carcosa(22) as a gift to the British Government in 1957? Kenapa Tunku bagi Carcosa sebagai hadiah kepada Kerajaan British di tahun 1957?

The Tunku: The simple reason is that I was grateful to the British for what they did for us, because we were in a fix. When we got our independence, they could have easily walked out on us… but instead they stayed on and provided all the help in our war against communist terrorism. The loyalty of the people of Malaya then was not undivided.. Sebab mudah dia ialah saya terhutang budi kat British dengan sikap depa pada kita dan kita pun terikat. Masa kita merdeka depa boleh angkat kaki. Tapi depa stay dan bantu kita lawan keganasan komunis. Kesetiaan orang Malaya pada masa tu bukan tak pecah belah..

I could have said “get out”, like some of those countries that became independent. In our case, we worked our independence in such a way that we wanted to make sure it would provide us security and benefit; there was no point in Merdeka if we were going to be starved, have economic depression and what not—revolution and insurrection. Saya boleh saja nak kata "keluar" macam sesetengah negara yang mencapai merdeka. Kita punya kes, kita bekerjasama untuk capai merdeka dengan cara yang menjanjikan ketenteraman dan faedah; takda makna lah merdeka kalau  kita kebulur, ekonomi meleset dan boleh jadi revolusi dan pemberontakan.

So that was why I asked the British to stay on. I told them if they gave us independence, I would like to keep some of the British personnel—civil servants, the technical and military people and the specialists—behind, to help us to run the country. The Malayans could run the administration but I needed help in other fields. The British were kind enough to stay for a period of time, three years, I think. If only our people today were a little bit grateful, they might recall what we learnt and gained from the British by way of education. They made us conscious of education, or rather, our lack of it… Itu pasal lah saya mintak British jangan keluar lagi. Saya bagitau depa kalau bagi merdeka saya nak depa pinjamkan pegawai depa , penjawat awam, juruteknik dan pegawai ketenteraan, pakar-pakar membantu menggerakkan negara. Orang Malaya mampu mentadbir tapi ada bidang saya perlukan depa. British punya lah baik bagi pinjam tiga tahun, rasanya. Kalau la orang kita la ni ade rasa syukur, depa nampak yang apa yang kita belajar dari British dari segi cara mendidik. Depa sedarkan kita kepentingan pendidikan, dan kurangnya kita ni pendidikan.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: But the British also benefited enormously from being in our country. Don’t you think so? It would be fairer to say it was a two-way process! Some people would even say we were the losers. Tapi British dah kaut untung banyak sepanjang menduduki negara kita. Tak begitu Tunku? Lebih adil untuk kata ia proses dua hala. Ada orang sampai kata kita kekalahan.

The Tunku: Yes, yes. They had been good to us, you know. They helped us during the Indonesian Confrontation and against the Philippines claim to Sabah. At one time we had much trouble on our hands, and the British were with us. Ya, Ya. Depa ni cukup baik pada kita, hang pun tau. Depa tolong kita masa konfrontasi Indonesia dan tuntutan Filipina atas Sabah. Kadang punya la banyak masalah di tangan kita , British tetap bersama kita.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: That was because they were obligated to do so under the Anglo-Malayan Defence Treaty Agreement, was it not? Itu sebab mereka perlu patuh dibawah Anglo-Malayan Defence  Treaty Agreement, betul tak?

The Tunku: Yes, and they gave us Sarawak, Sabah and Singapore and so many other things in 1963. The British could have given Singapore, Sabah and Sarawak independence, but they did not. Instead, they handed them to us. So all this should have been taken into consideration before we talk loosely. Hutang mas boleh di-bayar, hutang budi di-bawa mati.(23) What the saying says is true. Budi (gratitude) is the core of the Malay character. If a Malay threw that away, he would be very weak; they are weak already in this respect. Ya. Dan depa bagi kita Sarawak, Sabah , Singapura dan banyak lah lagi di tahun 1963. British boleh saja bagi Singapura, Sarawak dan Sabah merdeka tapi depa tak buat. Dah tu, depa serah pada kita. Benda benda ni kena ambil kira sebelum main cakap saja. Hutang emas boleh dibayar, hutang budi dibawa mati. Itu kata-katanya. Budi ni kental dalam jiwa orang Melayu. Kalau hangpa buang, hangpa akan lemah, dn dah lemah pun sekarang.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Tunku, I would like to ask you about Singapore and the British. As I informed you in Sarawak when we met there during the Merdeka celebrations in 1983, Sir Douglas-Home, now Lord Douglas-Home, had agreed to see me in October. I would like to ask you because at least one book has stated that Douglas-Home tried to pressure you, following the Singapore riots in 1964, to take Lee Kuan Yew and PAP into the central government. You were in London then. Perhaps that fuelled the speculation because you did meet Douglas-Home, and Lee Kuan Yew rushed up to Kuala Lumpur upon your return. I would like to know whether what the book said was true, and if it was, what was your reply? Tunku, saya nak tanya tentang Singapura dan British seperti yang saya maklumkan dulu kat Sarawak masa kita jumpa di sambutan Merdeka 1983, Sir Douglas-Home, la ni Lord Douglas-Home, dah bersetuju jumpa saya bulan 10. Saya nak tanya Tunku sebab ada satu buku sebut Douglas cuba mendesak Tunku, susulan rusuhan di Singapura tahun 1964, untuk bawa Lee Kuan Yew dan PAP masuk kerajaan pusat. Tunku kat London masa tu. Mungkin itu yang menyebabkan khabar angin sebab Tunku ada berjumpa Douglas dan Kuan Yew terus pergi KL sebaik Tunku pulang. Boleh saya  tahu adakah apa yang disebut buku itu benar, dan jika benar, apa pendapat Tunku?

The Tunku: No, he did not do anything like that because the British felt that Singapore could deal with the riots or any situation like that themselves. Singapore is small. People are concentrated in one city. It is not difficult to deal with troublemakers there. No, Sir Alec did not say anything; didn’t try to persuade, much less pressure me to do what the book claimed he did. But one thing, of course: the British idea as well as mine, was that on independence in 1957, we should remain good friends, and we were good friends. Well, they had a very good friend in Malaya. We had been working closely with them and they thought if they had to decolonise Brunei, Sarawak, Sabah and Singapore, they wanted the independence of those territories to be achieved through Malaysia so that the friendship of those territories could be sustained and they would, like Malaya, be their true friends. Takdak. Dia tak buat macam tu pun sebab British rasa Singapura boleh kawal rusuhan tu dan apa jenis kejadin macam tu sendiri. Singapura sangat kecik. Orang tertumpu kat satu bandar. Tak susah mana nak urus pembuat kacau kat sana. Tak, Sir Alec tak kata apa, tak cuba desak, apa lagi tekan saya untuk buat macam yang disebut buku tu. Tapi satu perkara ialah, British sependapat dengan saya bahawa ketika merdeka 1957, kita patut berkawan baik, dan memang kita berkawan baik. Depa ada kawan yang sangat baik kat Malaya. Kita berkerjasama rapat dengan depa dan depa pikir jika depa terpaksa jajah balik Brunei, Sarawak, Sabah dan Singapura, depa nak kemerdekaan negeri-negeri itu dicapai melalui Malaysia supaya persahabatan negeri-negeri tu kekal baik dengan depa seperti Malaya.

Neither Sir Alec nor anybody else tried to persuade me at any time to take over Singapore or to invite Lee Kuan Yew into the central government. Sir Alec, mahu pun sapa-sapa tak pernah suruh saya ambil alih Singapura atau suruh ajak Kuan Yew masuk kerajaan pusat.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Sorry, Tunku, not to take over Singapore. Rather, did Sir Alec try to make you take Lee Kuan Yew and PAP into the central government? Maaf Tunku, ya tak suruh ambil alih Singapura. Tapi  adakah dia membuatkan Tunku rasa patut bawak Kuan Yew masuk kerajaan pusat?

The Tunku: No, he did not. Takdak. Dia tak kata apa pun.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: But Noordin Sopiee said he did. He wrote as much in this book, Malayan Union to Singapore Separation, and he said he interviewed you. Don’t you recall it? Tapi Nordin Sopiee kata ada. Dia tulis banyak benda dalam buku dia, Malayan Union to Singapore Separation, dan dia kata dia temubual Tunku. Tunku ingat tak?

The Tunku: No, he did not interview me. That was the whole trouble with some people. Mana ada dia temubual saya. Ini lah masalah sesetengah manusia.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Think, please! This is important, Tunku. Are you sure that Douglas-Home never tried to persuade or even hint to you that you should take Lee Kuan Yew into the central government in 1964–65? Tolong ingat balik Tunku. Benda ni penting. Tunku pasti Douglas-Home tak pernah mintak atau membayangkan yang Tunku patut ambik Kuan Yew masuk kerajaan pusat dalam tahun 1964-1965?

The Tunku: No. Takdak.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Did Douglas-Home or any member of his Cabinet, Duncan Sandys or Thorneycroft (Peter Thorneycroft, British Secretary of Defence), try to persuade you, either following appeals from Singapore, merely acting on their own, or as a result of Singapore British lobbying in London, to take Lee Kuan Yew into the central government—to put him under your wing? Ada tak Douglas-Home atau mana-mana ahli kabinet dia  Duncan Sandys atau Thorneycroft, cuba mintak Tunku, sama ada atas permintaan Singapura, atau atas kemahuan mereka, atau hasil lobi Singapura di London, untuk ambil Kuan Yew masuk kerajaan pusat - letakkan dia bawah Tunku?

The Tunku: Nothing like that. The British, say what you like about them, are very correct people. What actually happened was that Lee Kuan Yew and his colleagues themselves made this request to me. It had nothing to do with the British. The trouble came about when Lee Kuan Yew asked me if we and the PAP could form a national coalition government so that we could jointly tackle the racial problems. I refused because there was no point; we (the Alliance Party) were strong, with more than enough majority in parliament. Lee Kuan Yew seemed to have forgotten that the Alliance itself was a coalition. I didn’t want to enlarge the coalition because there was no need to do so. Takdak langsung macam tu. British kata apa yang hang suka pasai depa tu yang paling betul. Sebenarnya, Kuan Yew dan kawan-kawan dia lah yang mintak pada saya. Takdak kena mengena dengan British. Masalah mula timbul bila Kuan Yew tanya sama ada kita dan PAP boleh bentuk perikatan peringkat nasional supaya boleh bersama selesaikan masalah perkauman. Saya tolak sebab takda maknanya; kita punya perikatan kuat dan lebih dari cukup majoriti di Parlimen. Kuan Yew lupa yang Parti Perikatan tu sendiri dah sebuah perikatan. Saya tak mau besarkan lagi perikatan ini sebab tak ada keperluan buat lagu tu.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Sorry, Tunku, for the umpteenth time. Did Douglas-Home not try to persuade you to take Lee Kuan Yew under your wing? Maaf Tunku, lagi sekali tanya. Ada tak Douglas Home ada mintak Tunku ambil Kuan Yew letak bawah Tunku dalam perikatan?

The Tunku: No.Takdak.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: But Noordin Sopiee said that he did! Tapi Nordin Sopiee kata dia ada suruh.

The Tunku: No, he did not. It was Lee Kuan Yew who wanted it, not Douglas-Home. Yes, he wanted it badly, but I refused to let him in. On one occasion, Kuan Yew came up to Cameron Highlands with me. But I still said no to him. Takdak. Dia tak sruh. Kuan Yew la yang nak sangat, bukan Douglas-Home. Tapi saya tak mau masukkan dia. Ada satu masa, Kuan Yew ikut saya ke Cameron Highlands. Tapi saya tetap kata tak boleh.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: So it was Lee Kuan Yew’s idea, not British pressure? Jadi ini idea Kuan Yew? Dan bukan desakan British?

The Tunku: Yes, it was Kuan Yew’s idea. I didn’t want him in the Alliance or in the coalition. I told him if he wanted to stay on, he could stay in parliament as a friend of the Alliance but I could not take him into the government. The first reason was that we ourselves were a coalition, the Alliance; the second reason was that he wanted to continue calling himself Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew. There just cannot be two Prime Ministers in one nation. That was why I said he could not join the coalition. Ya. Ini idea Kuan Yew. Saya tak mau dia masuk Parti Perikatan kita. Saya kata kalau dia nak juga, dia boleh jadi rakan parti Perikatan di Parlimen tapi saya tak boleh bawak masuk dia dalam kerajaan. Sebab pertama ialah kerajaan sendiri adalah sebuah perikatan. Sebab kedua, ialah dia dok sebut nama dia sebagai PM Kuan Yew. Mana boleh ada dua Perdana Menteri dalam satu negara. Sebab tu saya kata dia tak boleh masuk Parti Perikatan.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Would you have accepted him into the Alliance or PAP as a coalition partner, if he had agreed to call himself Chief Minister instead of Prime Minister? Or if Singapore had agreed to be a state in the federation, like Penang or Malacca? Adakah Tunku terima dia masuk Parti Perikatan kalau dia setuju sebut diri sebagai Ketua Menteri, dan bukannya Perdana Menteri? Atau kalau Singapura bersetuju menjadi seperti negeri-negeri dalam Persekutuan macam Penang dan Melaka?

The Tunku: Yes. But that was up to him. But he and I couldn’t be Prime Ministers simultaneously. As I said, there couldn’t be two Prime Ministers in a nation. That was impossible. Ya. Tapi terserah kat dia lah. Dia dan saya tak boleh jadi Perdana Menteri pada masa yang sama. Tak boleh ada dua PM dalam sebuah negara. Itu mustahil.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: But Lee Kuan Yew persevered, didn’t he? Not the British? Jadi Kuan Yew lah yang dok gigih. Bukan British?

The Tunku: The British, I am saying this for the umpteenth time to you, had nothing to do with Lee Kuan Yew’s efforts to join us in the central government. One thing you have got to give them credit for: they never interfered. No, the British did not try to pressure me. At one time, I tell you, when we had financial discussions over the pound sterling matter, exchange rates and so on, the British insisted on the value of our dollar to be at two shillings, three dimes. I said no to them. We had to look at the way things went. We could not fix the rate of exchange. Let it float. And Tan Siew Sin (Malaysia's Minister of Finance) came to see me and said that the British did not want to give in. I said, all right, we would get out of the sterling area. So he went and told them that I said we would get out of the sterling area. The British backed down. They had to agree with me. They never tried to pressure us to do anything, really. British ni, untuk kali ke berapa saya sebut taktau, takdak kena mengena dalam usaha Kuan Yew nak masuk kerajaan pusat. Satu benda kita patut puji depa, depa tak masuk campur. British tak cuba pun menekan saya. Sampai kalau hang nak tau, kami pernah berbincang tentang kewangan isu pound sterling, kadar tukaran asing dan sebagainya dan British mau tetapkan dolar kita pada kadar 2 shilling 3 dimes. Saya tak mau. Kita kena tengok pada cara seharusnya. Kita tak boleh tetapkan kadar tukaran. Biarkan dia terapung. Dan Tan Siew Sin datang jumpa saya kata British bertegas dengan kehendak depa. Saya kata baiklah, kita taknak terikat dengan sterling lagi. Dia pun bagitau British. British beralah. Depa terpaksa setuju dengan saya. Depa tak pernah desak saya apa-apa. Sungguh.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Lee Kuan Yew is on record as saying that he lobbied Lord Mountbatten, Harold Wilson (leader of the UK Labour Party), Duncan Sandys (the Commonwealth Secretary), Peter Thorneycroft and Arthur Bottomley (Shadow Commonwealth Secretary) to put pressure on you or, if you like, to talk to you on his behalf. Did any of these people talk to you or not? Kuan Yew seperti direkodkan ada melobi Lord Mountbatten, Lord Wilson, Duncan Sandys, Thorneycroft dan Arthur Bottomley supaya menekan Tunku, atau menyuruh depa cakap ke Tunku bagi pihak dia. Adakah mereka-mereka ini cakap apa-apa pada Tunku? 

The Tunku: None of them talked to me. They knew I would not have agreed. I was the Prime Minister of an independent country. Tak seorang depa pun cakap pada saya. Depa tau saya takkan setuju. Saya adalah Perdana Menteri sebuah negara merdeka. 

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: But he tried. Well, he said so anyway. Tapi dia ada cuba. Dia sendiri yang cakap.

The Tunku: Well, he might have tried with them, but no one spoke to me. Dia mungkin ada cakap kat depa. Tapi takdak seorang depa pun cakap pada saya.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: I think these people were wise; they listened to him and said they would do something about it but did nothing. How some people thought you would succumb to such pressures baffles me. Saya rasa mereka cukup bijak. Mereka kata pada dia akan buat sesuatu tapi tak buat apa-apa. Sampai ramai yang fikir Tunku akan tunduk pada desakan mereka

The Tunku: They did nothing. Depa tak buat apa pun.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Did the British government ever make any attempt to stop you from evicting Singapore from Malaysia in 1965? Ada tak kerajaan British pernah mencuba halang Tunku tendang Singapura keluar pada tahun 1965?

The Tunku: They never interfered. The British are gentlemen. They might not have been nice people when they were our colonial masters,(24) but when we became independent, they were on terms of friendship with us. They were real gentlemen. Depa tak masuk campur. British sangat baik pekerti. Depa tak la baik sangat masa jadi penjajah, tapi selepas kita merdeka, depa adalah sahabat kita. Depa bagus.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: But Lord Head (British High Commissioner in Malaysia) did try, didn’t he? Well, I recall he gate-crashed your party at Lee Yan Lian’s penthouse on Jalan Tun Perak with a personal message from Harold Wilson pleading for you to postpone the separation for a day so that Wilson could talk with you. Tun Razak and other senior ministers were there, and I was there too. Of course, you remember it, Tunku, don’t you? Tapi Lord Head ada cuba kan? Seingat saya dia datang majlis Tunku kat tempat Lee Yan Lian di Jalan Tun Perak dengan mesej peribadi Harold Wilson merayu Tunku tangguhkan pemisahan itu  sehari lagi supaya dia dapat bercakap dengan Tunku dulu. Tun Razak dan menteri-menteri kanan ada masa tu dan saya pun ada. Tentu Tunku ingat.

The Tunku: The British wanted to know why we were splitting. We, of course, never told them we were going to separate Singapore from Malaysia. I was a bit naughty then; I never told them. I just decided about the separation while playing golf with Goh Keng Swee (Singapore Finance Minister) at the Royal Selangor Golf Club. I told Keng Swee, “I don’t want any more trouble. If you want independence and Kuan Yew wants it, take it. I want no fuss; I want no terms, just take it.” British nak tau sebab apa kita berpisah. Memang kita tak bagitau depa sebab apa. Jahat juga saya masa tu. Saya tak bagitau depa. Saya dapat idea pemisahan ni masa main golf dengan Goh Keng Swee, Menteri Kewangan Singapura kat Royal Selangor Golf Club. Saya bagitau Keng Swee  " Aku takmau masalah dah. Kalau kau nak merdeka, Kuan Yew nak merdeka, pi merdeka. Aku tak halang, tak mintak apa-apa. Merdeka sahajalah."

And then when I decided on the day, and only on that day, the news leaked out and Lord Head was trying to get hold of me. He wanted to find out about the news. I went to hide myself at Lee Yan Lian’s penthouse and there was a party organised in my honour to celebrate the separation of Singapore the next morning. When he found out where I was, he came about midnight, I can’t remember exactly, it could have been even one or two o’clock in the morning. There was a party going on there and I slipped away, ran away from him. I did not want to see him because I didn’t want to talk about it. Dan masa saya buat keputusan tu, dan pada hari itu juga, hal itu bocor dan Lord Head cuba halang saya. Dia nak tau tentang berita tu. Saya menyorok kat tempat Lee Yan Lian dan ada keraian berlangsung untuk saya bagi merayakan pemisahan Singapura esoknya. Bila dia tau saya kat mana, dia datang tengah malam, saya lupa, pukul satu atau dua macam tu. Masa tengah parti tu saya selit-selit cabut lari dari dia. Saya tak mau jumpa dia sebab saya tak mau bercakap pasal itu.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Why did you keep it a secret from the British? Were you afraid the British might try to do something to stop it? Kenapa Tunku merahsiakan dari British? Adakah Tunku takut British buat sesuatu untuk menghalangnya?

The Tunku: Yes. They might have objected because, I must confess to you, I did promise them that when Singapore joined us, we would hold on to Singapore, to keep it from the communists, that we would look after the well-being of Singapore. So they gave us Singapore on that understanding. When I asked Singapore to leave us without informing the British, I felt that I had been rather disloyal to them. But I had no choice. Lee Kuan Yew gave me no choice. He broke his promise to me. .Ya. Depa mungkin membantah sebab saya dedahkan la kat hang, saya pernah berjanji kat depa bila Singapura sertai kita, kita akan jaga Singapura, dari ancaman komunis dan menjaga kesejahteraan Singapura. Jadi mereka beri Singapura berdasarkan itu. Bila saya tendang Singapura tanpa maklumkan pada depa, saya rasa saya tak setia pada depa. Tapi saya takdak pilihan. Kuan Yew lah yang buat saya takdak pilihan. Dia mungkir janji dia pada saya.

– Lee Kuan Yew, according to the Tunku, worked hard to help form Malaysia, but alas, worked harder to break it. He was an impatient man in a great hurry to be the leader of Malaysia, conveniently forgetting that none could become the leader of the country without the goodwill and support of the Malays. There was no way the Malays would have supported him then. Three months before the separation, Lee Kuan Yew formed the Malaysian Solidarity Convention comprising all non-Malay opposition political parties, the aim of which was to win the next election and form the central government (presumably without Malay participation) whose policy was to make all citizens equal. It was impossible for the Malaysian Solidarity Convention to win enough seats in parliament to form the government without Malay support. He nevertheless wanted to try. As a result, he enraged the Malays. The Tunku was never stronger and more popular among the majority of UMNO members for a long time than when he decided to evict Singapore, which caused no anguish for most Malays. But I was unhappy about the separation because I had rejoiced at the reunification of Singapore and Malaya on September 16, 1963. I was at the Istana in Singapore that evening to celebrate the occasion. But I still remember that evening, the happy but alien faces at the reception, unlike at similar receptions being held simultaneously in Kuala Lumpur, Kuching, Jesselton (Kota Kinabalu) and other state capitals. There appeared a certain shine about them and yet, at the same time, a certain unhappiness. -- Menurut Tunku, Kuan Yew  berusaha keras membantu pembentukan Malaysia dan lebih keras lagi usaha dalam menghancurkannya. Dia seorang yang kurang sabar dan gelojoh untuk pimpin Malaysia tapi lupa bahawa takdak sapa boleh pimpin kalau tak dapat sokongan orang Melayu. Tak mungkin sekali orang Melayu nak sokong dia pada masa tu. Tiga bulan sebelum pemisahan Kuan Yew membentuk Konvensyen Perpaduan Malaysia menghimpun semua parti pembangkang bukan Melayu dengan sasaran memenangi pilihanraya tanpa sokongan orang Melayu. Dia gigih mencuba. Hasilnya orang Melayu marah. Tunku tidak pernah mendapat sokongan dan populariti dari ahli UMNO sekian lama sebanyak ketika dia menendang Singapura keluar, dan kebanyakan orang Melayu mengalu-alukannya. Tapi saya tak gembira dengan pemisahan ini kerana masa hari pembentukan Malaysia pada 16 September 1963 saya gembira bukan main. Saya berada di Istana di Singapura pada petang itu meraikannya. Saya masih ingat, wajah-wajah gembira tapi luar biasa ketika resepsi itu, tak seperti di KL, Kuching dan Jesselton dan ibu-ibu negeri yang lain. Mereka kelihatan gembira tapi pada masa yang sama ada sedikit wajah tidak suka.

–

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Tunku, was the decision to separate Singapore entirely yours? Jadi keputusan pemisahan tersebut sepenuhnya hasil keputusan Tunku?

The Tunku: Yes, entirely mine and if there is any blame, I accept it. But in my mind, deep in my heart, that was the correct policy. Otherwise the Chinese would dominate our country, completely dominate this country of ours with their population of two million more than the Malays. Ya, semuanya kehendak saya dan mahu salahkan saya, saya terima. Tapi dalam fikiran saya, jauh di sudut hati saya, itulah dasar yang paling benar. Jika tidak, orang Cina akan menguasai negara kita, menguasai sebenar-benarnya negara kita ini dengan jumlah dua juta orang lebih dari orang Melayu.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: When you were in hospital in England with shingles, Tun Razak wrote you a letter telling you that things were getting worse at home; that the Malays were getting impatient with Lee Kuan Yew and the latter was mocking the Malays. You replied to him, and he read part of it to me. You said, “Lee Kuan Yew is the devil incarnate.” You also said something had to be done quickly about Singapore. Now, you yourself say it was your decision and Tun Razak also told me that you indeed wanted Singapore to be separated. Masa Tunku di hospital kat England kerana sakit kulit, Tun Razak tulis surat kata keadaan makin buruk di dalam negara; orang Melayu hilang sabar dengan Kuan Yew kerana Kuan Yew mempersenda orang Melayu. Tunku balas surat dia dan dia bacakan sedikit pada saya. Tunku kata "Kuan Yew ni syaitan dalam bentuk manusia". Tunku juga ada kata sesuatu mesti dilakukan secepat mungkin dengan Singapura. Sekarang Tunku kata ini keputusan Tunku dan Tun Razak juga berkata Tunku sememangnya mahu Singapura keluar.

The Tunku: You can ask Ismail Ali (former Governor of Bank Negara, the central bank, and baron of the Malayan economy). Many years ago, when I was in London studying law, I wrote a little article in which I said, “In the end, if Malaya becomes independent, it has got to be separated. We can’t have it as one country because the Chinese would be predominant and would be in a very much stronger position than the Malays. And so there was no choice; like a bad leg, it had to be amputated.” I did not mention Singapore or any state. That was long before I was even thinking of getting into politics. I gave Ismail Ali a copy of the article to read. I’ve lost mine. You can ask him. But that was many years ago. Hang boleh tanya Ismail Ali. Dulu masa saya belajar undang-undang di London, saya ada tulis artikel sebut " Akhirnya jika Malaya merdeka, ia harus dipisahkan. Kita tidak boleh senegara sebab orang Cina akan jadi dominan dan posisi depa lebih kuat dari orang Melayu. Dan tiada pilihan bak kaki yang dah membusuk, ia harus dipotong. Saya tak sebut Singapura atau mana-mana negeri. Lama dah sebelum saya terpikir untuk terjebak dalam politik. Saya bagi Ismail Ali satu salinan. Salinan saya hilang. Boleh tanya dia. Tapi lama dah.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Of course, Tunku, I am convinced by what you say. There’s no doubt about you wanting Singapore out of Malaysia. However, a lot of people who disliked Tun Razak said that he planned the separation of Singapore because he was so scared of Lee Kuan Yew and the idea of a “Malaysian Malaysia”; that he might not succeed you. There was no truth in this, was there? Saya tentu sekali yakin dengan kata-kata Tunku. Tiada keraguan bahawa memang Tunku mahu Singapura dikeluarkan dari Malaysia. Tetapi, ramai orang yang tak suka Tun Razak berkata dia lah yang rancang pemisahan Singapura sebab dia sangat takut idea Kuan Yew "Malaysian Malaysia"; yang dia mungkin tak berjaya menggantikan Tunku sebagai PM. Adakah ini tidak benar?

The Tunku: No. Political power was still with the Malays at that stage. The principal voters were the Malay voters. You wouldn’t think Malays would support Lee Kuan Yew instead of Tun Razak. Impossible. Tak. Kuasa politik masih pada orang Melayu pada peringkat itu. Pengundi utama adalah orang Melayu. Takkan orang Melayu nak sokong Kuan Yew daripada sokong Tun Razak. Mustahil.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: But Tun Razak was not a fighter like you. Lee Kuan Yew and I used to say that the Chinese appeared to favour a certain Malay (Khir Johari), though not him (Tun Razak). We were not worried because we knew the Chinese were a pragmatic people. Tapi Tun Razak bukan seorang tegas berjuang macam Tunku. Kuan Yew dan saya selalu berpendapat orang Cina masih menyukai sesetengah pemimpin Melayu tetapi bukanlah Tun Razak. Kami tak bimbang sebab kami tahu orang Cina adalah pragmatik.

The Tunku: But he could fight in his own cunning way. Tapi dia boleh lawan dengan kebijaksanaan dia.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Was he cunning? Bijaksanakah dia?

The Tunku: He had his way of doing things. I am just open, straightforward. I never say things or do things which I don’t believe in. Sometimes, too open. Everybody knows almost everything I have in mind. Dia ada cara dia. Saya ni terbuka dan berterus terang. Saya takkan berkata tentang benda yang saya tak percaya. Adakala, terlalu terbuka. Semua orang tahu hampir semua benda dalam pemikiran saya.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Not quite, Tunku. There were things with which you surprised people. Did you ever consider arresting Lee Kuan Yew? This was the impression Singapore liked to give to the foreigners; not of you personally, but your government.  Tak juga, Tunku. Ada juga perkara yang mengejutkan orang ramai. Pernahkah Tunku rasa nak tangkap Kuan Yew? Ini adalah tanggapan yang Singapura mahu orang luar anggap; bukan terhadap Tunku secara peribadi, tetapi terhadap kerajaan Tunku.

The Tunku: Quite true; that part is true, about surprising people. No, I never considered arresting Lee Kuan Yew. There was no point in doing so. Instead, I gave him independence when he wanted so much to be called Prime Minister. You know fully well no one country can have two Prime Ministers. But I allowed it for two years because I never intended to keep Singapore anyway. Betul. Tang tu betul. Tentang membuat kejutan kat orang ramai. Tidak, saya tak pernah rasa nak tangkap Kuan Yew. Tak dak maknanya. Malah saya bagi dia kemerdekaan bila dia kemaruk sangat gelaran Perdana Menteri. Hang pun tahu mana ada satu negara dua Perdana Menteri. Tapi saya biarkan saja selama dua tahun sebab saya tak pernah berhasrat nak simpan Singapura pun. 

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Did you ever consider making him an ambassador to the United Nations or making him our Foreign Minister before the separation? There were lots of rumours flying around then, of course. Not altogether surprising, because some people were indeed badly informed. Pernah kah Tunku berhasrat jadikan dia duta ke PBB atau jadikan dia Menteri Luar sebelum pemisahan? Banyak khabar angin menyebut hal itu waktu itu. Tak mengejutkan sebab masa tu banyak maklumat salah.

The Tunku: No, it was not true. I never offered him either the ambassadorship or the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. How could I? He might have entertained the idea, I don’t know. But it never crossed my mind to even send him to the United Nations, let alone make him a minister. He was in the opposition, though he was pro-Malaysia. Tidak. Itu tidak betul. Saya tak pernah tawarkan dia sama ada duta ke PBB atau Menteri Luar. Takkan lah. Dia mungkin syok sendiri dengan idea tu, saya tak tau. Tapi tak pernah terlintas di fikiran saya untuk hantar dia ke PBB, apatah lagi jadikan dia Menteri. Dia adalah pembangkang walaupun dia pro-Malaysia.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: This was the propaganda Lee Kuan Yew’s men, admirers and minions created. But the arrest—was it true or not? Ini adalah propaganda ciptaan orang-orang Kuan Yew, penjilatnya dan macainya. Tapi berhubung penangkapan - betul kah?

The Tunku: They made up all these stories. I never wanted to arrest him. I mentioned in my column (in The Star newspaper) and speeches that if I wanted to arrest him, nothing would save him. If I had wanted to suspend the Singapore Constitution, I could have done so but I didn’t want to do that either. I told him to get out. Depa buat cerita. Saya tak berhasrat nak tangkap dia. Saya sebut dalam ruangan saya di The Star dan dalam ucapan-ucapan saya yang kalau saya nak tangkap dia tak sapa boleh tolong dia. Kalau saya nak gantung Perlembagaan Singapura, saya boleh buat tapi pun saya taknak buat. Saya cuma suruh dia berambus.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Another thing, Tunku. Some people said that Lee Kuan Yew, like you, had all along planned first to get into Malaysia and then do something such that you would have to kick him out, so that Singapore could become independent and he the Prime Minister of a separate nation. He did not think that the British would have given him Singapore independence on its own. What do you think of this? Seperkara lagi Tunku. Ada orang kata Kuan Yew, macam Tunku, memang bercadang masuk Malaysia dan buat kacau supaya ditendang keluar menjadi negara merdeka dan dia boleh menjadi Perdana Menteri negara sendiri. Dia tak rasa British akan bagi dia kemerdekaan Singapura kalau diminta.

The Tunku: True, the British would not give him independence. I gave him independence. When I gave him independence, there was nothing to stop Singapore’s asking to rejoin Malaysia. Somebody else different from Kuan Yew might one day do just that, but it is up to the government of Malaysia whether to accept Singapore or not. If you accept Singapore, the one danger will always be present, that the Chinese will dominate the nation with a surplus population of two million, and later on three million or even four million. Betul. British takkan bagi depa merdeka. Saya yang bagi depa merdeka. Bila saya merdekakan depa, takdak sapa boleh halang depa untuk join kita balik. Seseorang selain Kuan Yew mungkin akan berbuat demikian satu hari nanti tetapi terpulang kepada kerajaan Malaysia untuk terima atau tidak. Jika kamu terima, bahayanya cuma orang Cina akan kuasai negara ini dengan kelebihan dua juta orang, kemudian tiga juta dan mungkin juga empat juta.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: And aggressive (and industrious), too. Dan agresif juga.

The Tunku: Yes. Betul.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Singapore was in a dilemma then. If it did not join Malaysia, the British would not give it independence and the people there wanted independence. Tunku, what is your view of Singapore after the separation? Singapura dalam dilema waktu itu. Jika dia tidak sertai Malaysia, British takkan beri kemerdekaan sedang rakyatnya mahu kemerdekaan. Tunku, apa pandangan Tunku tentang Singapura selepas perpisahan itu?

The Tunku: I think Singapore is working all right now. We say nothing against Kuan Yew, and Kuan Yew says nothing about us. But, before, he talked about Malaysian Malaysia. It was a very dangerous statement to make; it was a very provoking statement to make because it tended to break racial harmony and antagonise one race against the other. The Chinese, after listening to what Lee Kuan Yew had been saying about Malaysian Malaysia, felt they should have equal rights with the Malays. What equal rights can there be? Because they had all rights; we had nothing at all. And what we had, Kuan Yew wanted to share; what he had, he wanted to keep. So how can there be equal rights? So that was why I said to him, “It is better that you go your way.” Saya rasa Singapura dah okei sekarang. Kita pun tak cakap apa-apa yang menentang Kuan Yew dan Kuan Yew tak kata apa-apa yang menentang kita. Tapi dulu, dia menyebut "Malaysian Malaysia". Itu adalah kenyataan yang sangat bahaya, kenyataan provokasi kerana ia berkecenderungan memecah belah keharmonian kaum dan melaga sesama kaum. Orang Cina lepas dengar kenyataan dia mula rasa depa patut dapat hak sama rata dengan Melayu. Apa hak sama rata yang depa nak?  Sebab depa dah sapu semua hak lah la ni kita takda apa-apa. Dan apa yang kita ada Kuan Yew nak juga tapi apa yang Kuan Yew ada, dia punya sorang-sorang. Jadi kat mana hak sama ratanya? Sebab tu saya kata pada dia, " Baik hang bawak diri hang dengan cara hang."

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: You wanted Singapore in Malaysia. I think, to me, it was a smart move on your part. Tunku nak Singapura dalam Malaysia. Pada hemat saya itu adalah satu tindakan bijak Tunku.

The Tunku: In actual fact, I wanted only Sarawak and North Borneo (now Sabah) at the time. But the British made a condition that if I wanted Sarawak and North Borneo, I must also have Singapore as well, because we would be the influence that could keep Singapore from the communist menace. I said that that was all right; if that was their condition, I would take Singapore in. Fakta sebenarnya, saya cuma nak Sarawak dan Sabah masa tu. Tapi British bagi syarat, kalau nak kena ambik Singapura sekali sebab kita akan jadi pengaruh yang menjauhkan Singapura dari kacau ganggu komunis. Saya kata baiklah; kalau itu syarat depa, saya akan ambil Singapura sekali.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: So your speech about your fear of Singapore becoming a Southeast Asian “Cuba” was merely an excuse, wasn’t it? Jadi ucapan Tunku mengatakan Tunku bimbang Singapura akan menjadi seperti Cuba di Asia hanyalah sekadar alasan, betul kah?

The Tunku: Yes. Ya.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Over the years, have you regretted evicting Singapore? Kini, adakah Tunku menyesal menendang Singapura keluar?

The Tunku: No, far from it. That was what I had in mind all the time. I don’t know whether you remember about the “envelope agreement”. We were having a celebration after signing the Malaysia Agreement at the Ritz in Piccadilly and Kuan Yew took an envelope, wrote something, and asked me to initial it. I initialled; I didn’t even read what he had written on it. (See Lee Kuan Yew, The Singapore Story, Singapore, 1998, pp. 481–483, where a photo of the “envelope agreement” is reproduced.) Tak. Jauh sekali tidak. Itulah apa yang saya mahu sepanjang masa. Saya tak tahu sama ada hang ingat "perjanjian sampul surat". Kami tengah meraikan majlis tandatangan Perjanjian Malaysia di Ritz kat Piccadilly dan Kuan Yew ambil sampul surat, tulis sesuatu dan suruh saya sign. Saya sign. Saya tak baca pun apa dia tulis. 

So when Ghazali Shafie (Permanent Secretary to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs) came to me and said, “Tunku, apa ta’ bacha, apa ta’ bacha dahulu, Tunku sign itu?” (“Tunku, why didn’t you read it before signing it?”) I said, “Saya ta’ peduli-lah, pasai saya mau dia.” (“I didn’t read it because we needed him as part of the agreement.”) It was so necessary for us to have him before we could have the other two states in Borneo. So I agreed to what he wanted. Why waste time with him? I wanted to get on with the party. Anyway, I didn’t intend to keep Singapore all the time. Jadi bila Ghazali Shafie datang kat saya kata " Tunku, apa tak baca, apa tak baca dulu, Tunku sign tu," saya jawab "Saya tak peduli lah. pasai saya mau dia". Adalah penting untuk kita dapatkan dia dahulu sebelum dapat Sabah dan Sarawak. Jadi saya setuju apa juga kemahuan dia. Kenapa nak buang masa. Saya nak seronok dengan majis itu. Lagipun saya tak berniat nak pegang Singapura selamanya.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: In spite of what Lee Kuan Yew said, that Singapore is no pushover? Berdasarkan kata Lee Kuan Yew, bahawasanya Singapura bukan hadap sangat .

The Tunku: Yes. Kuan Yew talked nonsense! They would not get their independence without Malaysia. Ya, Kuan Yew merepek. Mereka takkan merdeka tanpa Malaysia.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: That was it. Joined Malaysia, created trouble, and finally wrecked it. Ya, nampaknya begitulah. Sertai Malaysia, buat kacau, dan akhirnya rosakkan.

The Tunku: But the British could have gone the other way; joined Singapore with Sarawak and Sabah. I was grateful to them that they didn’t. They respected my wishes. Tapi British boleh saja gabungkan Singapura dengan Sabah dan Sarawak jadi satu negara tapi syukurlah depa tak buat. Depa hormati kemahuan saya. 

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Why did you not entertain Lee Kuan Yew’s plea for a looser federation instead of separation? Sebab apa Tunku tak tawar Kuan Yew dengan persekutuan yang sedikit diberi kelonggaran selain pemisahan terus?

The Tunku: If I had agreed to what he wanted, he would be a good boy for a while. Then he would go back to his old ways of trying to create ill will between the Malays and the Chinese through the Malaysian Malaysia campaign. I thought for a long time, you know, and I was in close touch with Razak, that the best way was to go on our separate ways but remain good friends. I simply could no longer work with nor trust Lee Kuan Yew. Kalau saya setuju kehendak dia, dia jadi budak baik sekejap saja. Kemudian dia akan kembali dengan perangai lama dia mahu melaga-lagakan Melayu dan Cina dengan Malaysian Malaysia dia. Dah lama saya fikir, hang tau, dan saya berbincang dengan Tun Razak, cara terbaik ialah berpisah tapi jadi kawan baik. Saya memang dah tak boleh nak kerjasama dengan Kuan Yew, mahupun percayakan dia lagi.

Dato’ Abdullah Ahmad: Well, Tunku, thank you very much for your courtesy and hospitality. Baiklah, terima kasih atas ihsan dan layanan Tunku.

Conversations with Tunku Abdul Rahman (2016) is published by Marshall Cavendish Singapore. Conversations with Tunku Abdul Rahman (2016) diterbitkan oleh Marshall Cavendish Singapore

This article was first published in Esquire Singapore, August 2017. Artikel asal diterbitkan oleh Esquire Singapore Ogos 2017.